Silly support for descript.ion file discriptions

I am evaluating DOpus for the 100th time (since version 6 I believe) and I always find something really silly that sends me running, not walking, to Add/Remove Programs (see my previous post also). One would think that a product at v8 would be mature enough to have ironed the simple and basic things out but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Anyway, I have enabled file descriptions based on descript.ion files. I try to move a folder from a network drive to my PC. The move operation starts and... SURPRISE! ERROR MESSAGE! "An error occurred moving "XYZ". The directory is not empty. (145)"

It took me a few minutes to figure it out. Of course it's not empty--the descript.ion file is there........

This is imbecilic. Does the concept of "QA" mean anything to GP Software?? How can I possibly trust this application with my valuable files and folders when it can't get the simple stuff right??

I am a manager of an inhouse software development team at a major financials firm. If I shipped software with these kinds of showstoppers I would get fired. As simple as that.

I am uninstalling (again) DOpus from my PC. Maybe next version.

If anyone from GP Software cares to reply, I will appreciate it. I will watch this topic.

Regards,

-ilias.

PS. Oh, and when you you move a file/folder to a folder represented by a button on the toolbar, get rid of the "+" sign from the cursor. Please.

The "+" sign stands for "copy", you know...

I can confirm the problem. I guess it got broken when a related bug with descript.ion files was fixed. It'll probably be easy for GPSoft to fix now that it's been pointed out and I've filed a bug report to them.

I think the copy/move cursors are correct unless you've customized the drop action so that it always moves or always copies. That used to annoy me as well (since I've got mine set to always move) but I got used to it and don't notice it anymore.

The cursors are not correct.

I am not clear what you mean by "drop action", since I don't see it in the properties of the button. When I edit the button, the function is "Go to ...". In any case, that's irrelevant. No matter what the default action is, the universal Windows convention is that by pressing Control+Drag&drop you are copying; by pressing Shift+Drag&drop you are moving. Shift+Drag&drop works correctly (it moves) but the "+" stays on the cursor no matter whether you are pressing Control or Shift or whatever.

As for the descript.ion issue, I simply have no words... It shows to me that whoever coded that thing didn't test it AT ALL.

Not ONCE.

If he had bothered to do one (just one) folder copy/move operation, he would have seen the problem.

We are not talking esoteric, exotic bugs here. We are talking things that fly right in your face.

Let me tell how else DOpus "improved" my productivity. I think you will enjoy this one. I had a folder on my PC with over 100 files or so. At some point, I needed to move that folder on a network drive because my team needed access to it. So I did just that. I moved it there. It moved, no errors from DOpus, no complains, all well. Right? Right my behind.....

WHAT I DIDN'T KNOW, was that ANOTHER colleague of mine had put a folder there with THE SAME NAME. That wouldn't be a problem with all file managers in existence.

Except with Directory Opus.

Because WHAT DOPUS DID... (and I still shake my head in disbelief even as I write this)... was to MERGE the contents of the folders. No warning, no "This folder exists bla bla bla" message.. NOTHING.

To ALL our suprise, we had ended up with ONE HUGE folder with MIXED contents from those two big projects.

We ended up spending (and I am not exaggerating here) DAYS separating the files and folders in that folder. D-A-Y-S.

And I ended up looking like a fool.

That's Directory Opus for you....

What more I can say than this, I don't know. I think my experiences with this software speak for themselves. I wanted to love DOpus. I really did.

Cheers and regards,

-iLiAS

No offence mate but if Opus is causing you this much trouble and drama maybe you should stop evaluating it and stick with Explorer?

Merging directories together makes perfect sense to me, I use it all the time, and other file managers do it as well. I wouldn't be against having an optional warning about when it may happen but I'd turn if off myself. Once you notice such a thing has happened and you didn't want it to you can either Undo or, if it's too late to do that, use the Owner fields on all the files to work out who created which files and move them all back. Using flat mode in Opus and sorting by the column would let you do it very quickly. No data would've been lost because you would've been asked if you wanted to overwrite any files which conflict.

The descript.ion issue only happens if you have a certain setting turned on, have made some file descriptions (many of us don't even use the feature you know), and then move the parent directory between partitions. Yes, it's a bug, but bugs like that slip through sometimes. (I also work for a major financial institution and even there bugs slip though our long test cycles because of all the permuations of options and inputs that need testing.) The bug won't lose you any data and I imagine it'll be fixed soon enough. Meanwhile it seems that if you wait a couple of seconds and press return the error goes away so, yes, it's annoying if you use descript.ion files but it's not what I'd call a showstopper.

Regarding the mouse cursor I misunderstood that you were talking about drag&drop between two file displays. I see what you mean about the cursor always having a plus on it when you're dropping on to Go buttons to move files to that place. Yeah, it's wrong but it's not the end of the world. I'd like to see if fixed too but it's not something that keeps me up at night. If it bugs you that much then don't drop files on Go buttons; it's not like other file managers let you (AFAIK) so if the extra feature Opus gives you doesn't work exactly how you want it to then don't use it, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater either. Or do, it's your choice.

nudel thanks for your reply.

However, I truly regret some of your remarks.

So, if I dare to criticice a policy of my country's government, I should be told to get out of here and move somewhere else, right? Pretty juvenile remark on your part, mate. I truly regret that you made it.

I've tried them all. Show me one. Just one.

No, merging should be the optional behavior. Anything that's not the "norm", anything that's not the OS convention (Explorer) should be optional. Confirmations should be ON, especially when they are on in Explorer. Remember, most people are coming to DOpus from Explorer. Once they start to learn DOpus, they can ease up slowly to the more advanced functionality (like turning off confirmations and merging folders etc.) That's the user-centric attitude, not the one you are describing.

I turn off confirmations even for delete operations. That's my preference. What does this mean? That I should ship software that doesn't have them?

And in any case, there's no such configuration setting in DOpus, even though I have posted about this before (search the forum). Nobody cared to do anything about it obviously.

Well, obviously mate, you and I have completely different philosophies here. Sure, yes, it's not a life or death situation, nobody's gonna die because of it, so let's cool off, right?

I'll tell you what. If you were test-driving a cheap Yugo which costs $5000, you might forgive an imperfection here and there, and you would even expect the interior to rattle a little. You would expect poor manufacturing quality.

But I bet if you were test-driving a Mercedes at $70000, the most minor imperfection would bother you big time. It would stick out like a fly in the milk. And you would damn sure complain about it.

Your standards and expectations (and demands) of quality would simply be a lot higher.

In the face of COUNTLESS freeware file managers, DOpus, at $65 and a PC Magazine editor's choice, is the Mercedes of file managers. If you think that issues such as folders not being able to be moved because of wrong handling of the descript.ion file, or cursors not changing where they should, are not worthy making a fuss about ("not something that keeps me up at night", "not what I'd call a showstopper") then obviously you and I have a very different appreciation of what the word QUALITY means.

You mean to tell me that the cursor showing you are copying when you are actually moving is not a showstopper? It's CONFUSING mate! The cursor gives you misleading information about a FILE OPERATION for God's sake! And what is DOpus? It's a FILE MANAGER. And you still don't think that's a showstopper???

So, why don't I "stop evaluating and go back to Explorer" (as per your courteous suggestion?) Because I need a tool such as DOpus.. That's why. I need it badly. Can I stay now?

That's all mate. No point in taking this further. I think both our points have been made.

As a wise man once said: "The devil is in the details."

Cheers,

-ilias.

Thanks for reporting the descript.ion Move problem, this has now been fixed.

An interim new version is available from gpsoft.com.au/files/DOpus8201Install.exe for the ANSI version)

Hmmm...

I gotta say that as a 'fan' of Dopus I was tempted to lash back a little bit at iLiAS for some of his enflamatory remarks...

"This is imbecilic. Does the concept of "QA" mean anything to GP Software??"

But the bottom line is that he's got some valid complaints... all of which I agree are bugs, though I still don't like his attitude over it at all (and don't need to :slight_smile:):

a) incorrect handling of descript.ion files during folder move.
b) no warnings when copying/moving folders to a destination already containing same folder name
c) incorrect plus sign when shift-dropping files onto toolbar buttons

For the first - like nudel said... it's probably something that got broken while fixing the 'copy folder with descript.ion options enabled' issue. But now fixed in 8.2.0.1? Thank you very much... but I hardly call it imbecilic... I call it a 'mistake'. To Jon... please don't fire yourself just yet!

For the second - I agree with iLiAS... and if the 'move' was of a large amount of data, then any talk of 'undoing it' and ways to avoid it happening in the first place ring very hollow; especially if you're upset with yourself for not having simply looked at the folder you were copying 'to' first :slight_smile:. But everyone should keep in mind that this was a 'business' situation, not a home user who had to go back and separate out his heavy metal collection from his girlfriends hip-hop mp3's. Leaving such a thing to be caught and made obvious to a users attention by way of file conflict errors is bogus... and does nothing to guard against the situation iLiAS seemed to have been in - same root folder name - different content - and not content he wanted 'mixed together'. The utter disbelief he seems to hold for the fact that Dopus then combined the folder contents was kind of amusing though :slight_smile: - I chuckled wondering what else any file manager would or should do. But in any event, Explorer throws up a message before it does the same:

"This folder already contains a folder named "foo"."

...that I DEFINITELY think Dopus should do as well! I can see others (like Nudel) turning it off, but even adding an explicit WHENEXISTS=ask argument to the copy/move operation seems to do nothing to catch folder conflicts. It most certainly should, and that it doesn't should indeed be considered a bug!

For the last - yep... it's misleading, but I sort of laughed that one off and also won't lose any sleep over either it or my pagan, sacreligious, and evidently Nudel-like sense of quality :slight_smile:.

To iLiAS... personally, I'm real sorry that your experience with Dopus not only didn't win you confidence in it, but seemed to actually cause you problems... that really sucks man and for the next person I hope the things you've brought up are 'all' fixed! But this is a 'user' forum where people mostly try and help each other out and Nudel in particular is a REALLY helpful dude who does a good bit of testing for people to find solutions to their problems. I was also tempted to tell you to 'go use explorer if you hate Opus so much' but that's NOT the general attitude around here; unlike other forums where it seems like ANY criticism AT ALL is met with 'go away'. But that's not what happened here... when you post to a forum bitching about how imbecilic the people testing the product must be, well... all I can say is expect some defensiveness, especially when you fire back at someone who simply have different opinions than you about what constitute show-stoppers.

Well no, "bug" implies it's not working as it was supposed to, which is not the case. You can copy one folder over another without destroying the original, and Opus was always designed to work like this.

And in over 4 years no one has ever complained about this before. If they had, an option to make it behave like Explorer would have gone in long ago.

Regarding the mouse cursors, yes it's always been an issue. The main problem is that Opus, unlikely practically any other program, lets YOU decide what happens in a drag and drop. Displaying the correct cursor would involve Opus looking at the button or folder you were dropping the file on and evaluating all the possible flags of the command while you are still dragging, to determine what the eventual outcome is going to be.

At the time it was deemed that having to do this on the fly would be too much work for a drag and drop loop (which are supposed to be quick), and so we decided the cursor should simply reflect what keys you have held down during the process.

Jon, sorry mate but you are wrong again. The cursor does not reflect what keys you are holding out during the file operation.

Try it. Try it right now. Create a "Go to..." button on your toolbar that points to a folder, and drag something there. Then press the Shift or the Control key and tell me if the cursor is changing to "reflect what keys you have held down during the process."

So much for that.

Really?

What about this post then? resource.dopus.com/modules/newbb ... umpost3818

I posted this on the 9th of August, and I got kindly neglected. My post was written in the most courteous tone, even at the face of the embarassement and grief this had caused me. I can be quite civil at times, you know :slight_smile:

steje, I agree with you that my tone is rather critical of the handling of these issues. I wouldn't call it inflamatory, but yes, it is critical. Look, I was using 2xExplorer for a while, then Xplorer2, I've used ExplorerPlus, I've used them all, and to be honest I just never run into these kinds of issues before. Perhaps our opinion differ here, but, as I wrote earlier, from the Rolls Royce of file managers, being at version v8 no less, I expect more polish. I don't consider it just "nice to have" -- from a $65 file manager I expect it. You are welcome to differ here, opinions and views are subjective and respected.

As for my tone, you are right to an extent, but I also don't feel that this situation got handled correctly at all mate. The first thing they teach you in customer management is: When you are dealing with an upset customer, your first job is to stop talking and to LISTEN and to let the customer VENT. That's job #1.

You don't tell the customer "go use the other product then". You don't aggravate him. You listen. You show sympathy. Especially when it is your product that caused him/her grief.

Anyway, I think DOpus is in a class by itself out there. If I didn't, I wouldn't be investing my time writing these words right at this very moment. Nobody will be more glad to see it constantly polish and improve than me.

Thank you all for your time and attention to all this.

Cheers,

-ilias.

PS. The cursor nonwithstanding, are there any plans to change (or, at least, make configurable) this folder-merging behavior? Right now, that's about top-priority for me.

steje, I also want to add one more thing because I forgot it: I want to THANK YOU for your well-written, intelligent and well thought-out post.

With civil attitude, too (although you were tempted, admit it!) :slight_smile:

Cheers mate!

-ilias

The resource centre is not the official support channel. If you post something in here and it gets overlooked, it gets overlooked.

If you submit an official support request through the GP Soft website you will get an answer.

(Incidentally, Opus for Windows was released in June 2001. According to my calculations, August 2005 is more than 4 years from that date)

[quote]
PS. The cursor nonwithstanding, are there any plans to change (or, at least, make configurable) this folder-merging behavior? Right now, that's about top-priority for me.[/quote]

It's now on the list, with lots of other things, and will be addressed in due course.

Incidentally (again), you do not seem to have commented on the fact that the bug you reported was fixed and an update released in less than 24 hours. How many other software companies provide that sort of support?

iLias,

You'd do well to remember a number of points.

  1. This is NOT the official support channel. It's independant, although GPSoftware staff look in when they have time as a courtesy.

  2. Out of your 3 "bugs" only one really is a bug, the other 2 are not bugs, rather feature requests. The actual bug you reported was fixed in less than 24 hours - try getting that from ANY other file manager author.

  3. Your opinions, right or wrong become irrelevant when the attitude used to express them is antagonistic and rude.

I will not tolerate the type of antagonistic posting you've been making any further. Please feel free to post, but moderate your attitude. There's no need to be aggressive in order to make a point.

I refer you to our Terms & Conditions

iLiAS:

LOL - yes I was tempted :slight_smile:...

And to be honest, I then thought about the people that have had MAJOR data integrity issues with the product I used to develop and support, and felt a pang of sympathy and understanding as to why someone in your shoes would be enraged. Having to spend days or even just hours un-fudging what an application has done is not a loyalty-earner by any stretch.

As to my opinion of your tone - I don't say it's justified or unjustified. Maybe just mis-directed is all... like I said, this is a "users" forum run by fans of the program whose loyalty the product has earned over the years, and even feeling sympathy for your situation as I did; your attitude came across as being rude. And even though the GPSoft guys are 'admins' on these forums the official GPsoft support site might have been a better place to tell the makers what imbeciles they are :frowning:... And while the answers HERE in this thread weren't what you might have been looking for... FOR THE RECORD:

a) Your first post I'm glad to say WAS INDEED absolutely responded to (by me :slight_smile:) about 20 minutes after you posted it! And I said the same then as I said here in this thread... basically that the current functionality looked wrong to me and sounded like a feature request. The impact it could have (and did have on YOU) has made me change my tune slightly from FR to bug in this thread... But Jon disagrees and has quoted the software developers maxim :slight_smile: that it's not designed to work this way.

b) Jon has stated today in your other topic that he sees no reason why an option for this can't be added in the next version... which I'm personally hoping might be an interim "dot" release for 8.2.x.x.

Anyways... I really like Jon and the other GPSoft guys alot. They're down to earth and have been very agreeable in adding new features for customers for FREE! From what I've seen they also usually try to make sure that Dopus' default behavior matches that of Windows Exploder... so for that reason I would still personally consider this folder handling thing a bugette, though I understand the 'rationale' Jon explained in the other topic and in the past have had to take the same position myself as he has about the 'definition' of a bug :slight_smile:.

Anyways iLiAS... I'm curious, was your ill-fated experience with the merging of the two folders 'after' your original post 2 months ago when you first noticed this behavior? If so, that's even more of a shame... I don't recall it ever appearing here as a feature request after that post.

EDIT NOTE- and it seems while I've been banging on my keyboard to write this - others have jumped in and made the same points about this site not being 'official support' and about taking the antagonism down a notch. So I hope you do, and that you stick around and buy Dopus if it ever proves to you that it's worth the money... and if it doesn't "go back to explorer if you hate it so much" ROTFL!!!

Ok guys, a couple of points here:

For tanis:

  1. It wasn't clear to me that this is not an official support channel for DOpus. This being the case, you are right, it seems like I am a dork barking at the wrong tree here.

  2. It boggles my mind that you do not see these 3 things as bugs. Not detecting a folder copy/move conflict is not a bug?? Not changing the cursor respectively when pressing Shift/Control is not a bug?? It's not a bug, it's a "feature" right? :slight_smile:

Anyway, I don't want to tire the issue here, ok.. it's a "feature"-request then :slight_smile:

  1. If you thought my attitude was rude, then you have never served in a customer service job. Unhappy customers are commonplace there, and you just handle them accordingly. But, again, this is a moot point, since I am now clear that this is not GP Software I am writing to (officially, at least), but users helping each other.

I was critical, unhappy, and angry, yes. It's my right. But NOT to a fellow users forum. I agree.

Now, if you can tolerate my hot-blooded Greek idiosyncrasy or not depends on how much you value freedom of speech :slight_smile:

Again, this not being the official support channel of GP Software, I regret coming across as rude.

jon:

I completely missed your post about a new version that has fixed the descript.ion problem. Being so short, it got buried between those other long posts. I agree that the responsiveness was exceptional. Congrats to the DOpus team for that and to you guys for bringing it up to them. Excellent job. Really. Credit should be given where credit is due.

steje:

Yes, you did respond to that post, but again, me thinking that this is the official support forum, I felt that nobody from GP Software cared to aknowledge it. I am clear now that this is a users forum.

As per your other question, I actually had two ill-fated experience with that folder-merging thing (you know, it really shocks me that not a lot more people are not complaining about that. I really wonder how many users actually know about this and realize that this is happening. You certainly didn't before my August post. You didn't, did you..)

My first folder-merging accident was back in August. Thankfully, that wasn't too painful to fix, it's just that, initially, I couldn't explain how it had happened. It took me a while to figure it out, after I did some tests with DOpus to discover the issue (I was evaluating 3 file managers at the time+using Explorer, so finding what caused it was not so straight-forward. To tell you the truth, in the beginning I thought I had made a mistake and merged the folders by accident. Very confusing though, it took me days to actually realize what was happening and that DOpus was the culpit.)

It was the second incident that really messed me up, that one at work that I described. I had totally forgotten that DOpus does this, and of course I had no idea that such same-named folder was already existing on the network server.

I am still evaluating (and learning more about) DOpus right now, but you know what the funny thing is? It has made me paranoid. Now, before I copy or move a folder somewhere, I have to check there to make sure no such named folder already exists :slight_smile: Silly, but it's true.

Like I said, it really blows my mind that not a hell of a lot more people complain about this. And I really (I mean it) challenge you to find one, just one other file manager that does this. I can guarantee you (because I've tried them ALL) that there is none. Not one.

Cheers guys! And thanks for everything!

-ilias.

Well I just tried Total Commander, and that does it. If I can find one in less than a minute I'm sure I could find more if I tried.

It was me who said that and I'm just a user here, albeit one with admin rights (that very rarely get used).

Yeah - Nudel's just a lowly user like the rest of us :slight_smile:.

So "go use the other product then" iLiAS - moohaha (twisting the moustache). Just kidding tho :slight_smile:.

I think when I first looked at Dopus (v6?) and found this forum, I may have made a post telling Tanis that I thought he was retarded or something for not automatically appreciating the ~wonderment~ of tabbed file browsing ala Opera/Firefox/etc... Yeah I think that post was immediately deleted - LOL. That was back in my forum etiquette infancy, and since then I've come back to be very happy with this forum and appreciate the way Tanis runs it - it's very docile and positive minded, especially compared to other forums I've been on... Man, has anyone ever tried making critique on semi-fanatical forums like those for Opera and Firefox or even JRiver? Some of the topics I've looked at over there are littered with people just quoting back forum rules or saying how the product offers so much compared to alternatives and the complainer should just be happy with what he's got. This instead of really answering questions or requests for help at all...