When the next gen Surface devices come out and we see 2nd gen ARM chipsets I'll probably get on board with that, hoping that the platform will be more mature, especially if offerings will have discrete Nvidia GPUs on board. The one thing that will stop that dead in the water is no ARM native version of Opus. Are there plans within the next year or so to start work on an ARM native Opus build? Maybe by 2026 in time for the next generation of Snapdragon chips when I imagine Windows on ARM will start to get really big especially with the way Intel is faltering.
As an aside there are rumors Nvidia will also release laptop chips to compete with Qualcomm which should be interesting if we get some formidable competition in the non-Apple ARM laptop space.
Nothing to add at this stage that wasn't already said in previous threads about this. We'll probably do one in the future, if the devices become more popular and not a tiny, expensive niche, but can't say exactly when yet. Lack of hardware to test with is one of the main problems.
Windows on ARM getting really big is a bit like self-driving cars, always a couple of years away
Same with Linux on the desktop, and there is even more buzz about it while market share is still faltering.
Windows on ARM has at least a decent IDE (Integrated Development Environment):
ARM Win | Intel/AMD Win | macOS
-------------------------+-------
VS |
-------------------------| Xcode
| CB | Delphi |
(VS = Visual Studio; CB = C++Builder)
MacBook Air is short before M4 version launch.
Current M3 version is on bottom price here (1199 Euros, with 15 inch and new 16 GB RAM basis).
Have recently upgraded my solid Win 10 main system so can use it as long as possible until Win 11 becomes mature...
The latest 2024 Win 11 Update (used on secondary machine) fixed an issue with the start menu for me.
Remaining is an issue with the taskbar not able to make smaller like it is possible in previous Windows versions.
Such mods are therefore the most popular in Windhawk.
So can relax and also wait for Windows on ARM becoming mature...
Throwing myself on this thread to give the impression its a popular feature request.
Got a Surface Laptop 7 through work, didnt know that line of laptops are ARM64 cpus now, or that tech had come far enough that ARM could run x32/x64 apps with (mostly) no problem. Looking forward to DOpus playing nice with it too, but understandable.
We need a match for the MacBook Air, "world’s most popular laptop" (claims Apple).
I see that there is a Surface Laptop Go line which could be appropriate for this purpose. But there is only a toy device with a 12 inch display.
Apple also claims: "And no matter how intense the workload, it stays silent thanks to a fanless design."
That is the point, and that claim I can confirm with my 2023 M2 MacBook Air, the first model with a 15 inch display.
Let me know when a matching Windows on ARM device arrives and I will acquire it as soon as possible, no matter (almost) the cost...
I think you are making a logical mistake by attributing to ARM processor properties like "Fanless" and "Small".
Intel and AMD can make x64 processors that will be as performant and as fanless as Apple's ARM.
Why isn't any PC maker able to build something comparable to the Apple MacBook Air on ARM basis?
Because ARM is just an instruction set and not a processor architecture.
Apple managed to design a really good ARM-compatible processor and got exclusive access to the best processor development factory.
None of the other companies have such ARM processor nor the factory capacity to produce it.
Also, Apple's margins are much higher because they sell whole laptops instead of only a processor. Thus, they can afford to pay huge amounts of money for exclusive access to the TSMC factories and designing their own processor.
I think the situation is that this edge that Apple has is going to get smaller and smaller over time. TSMC is building new factories. The manufacturing capacity is improving. Soon, the advantages that Apple has will diminish, and we will see comparable Windows laptops.
I am using silent and fanless Intel/AMD devices with Windows for over 18 years and appreciate them! (Mobile for 7 years)
I don't need upper grade quantitative performance, I just need two qualitative features: silent/fanless and a decent display size.
All my actively used systems, desktop and mobile, have these features, the MacBook Air is one of them.
I just wish that I could get a suitable Windows on ARM device to cover that platform for software development, which is the subject of this thread.
Therefore I need a USABLE machine, and this is currently nonexistent in the Windows on ARM case.
Soon, the advantages that Apple has will diminish, and we will see comparable Windows laptops.
Amen! From your lips to God's ears...
By the way, it would be difficult for me to turn primarily to macOS platform development, because there is still no suitable desktop machine in Apple's line-up, kind of a Mac mini Air.
The above given FanlessTech site shows many ways how this could be achieved, and in this area Apple falls behind.
You can buy any existing Windows ARM laptop to test your SW.
By the way, it would be difficult for me to turn primarily to macOS platform development, because there is still no suitable desktop machine in Apple's line-up
It depends on what specific application you develop for MacOS. If you use some generic UI framework, like Qt or Avalonia, you can just develop everything on Windows and use MacOS only for testing purposes.
You can buy any existing Windows ARM laptop to test your SW.
I refuse the idea to acquire a device only for testing purposes if it isn't generally useful for me.
This approach avoids the mistake to waste effort in supporting unsubstantial platforms, because the usage already justifies the acquisition.
At the moment Windows on ARM has not proven substance.
Substantial frameworks are those which are part of a substantial IDE (Integrated Development Environment).
Qt is not, because it relies on a third-party C++ compiler, and standard C++ is deficient for GUI development.
Managed (non-native) environments like .NET are not everyone's favorite.
you can just develop everything on Windows and use MacOS only for testing purposes.
The only viable solution for this approach which I know would be Delphi with the FireMonkey (FMX) framework, but it does not support Windows on ARM yet, and the macOS compiler is based on LLVM.
By the way, the .NET Framework and .NET language C# were mainly developed by the original Delphi and Turbo Pascal author Anders Hejlsberg.
Delphi has a free Community Edition, as well as its sibling C++Builder, and celebrates its 30th anniversary in a few days on February 14th.
I thought you could use MSVC on Windows. I don't know about Mac though.
This is misunderstood, it is meant that Qt can use any standard C++ compiler. But because standard C++ is lacking essential features for GUI programming, extra mechanisms are needed to solve the C++ deficit. It is explained in the article The Solution Provided by 25 Years of C++Builder.
Yes, it is true. That is why C# language is so amazing.
I have a special view on this.
Microsoft wanted to win the competition with Visual Basic.
That failed, and so they hired the lead developer from the competition (Borland) to build something different.
If C# language is amazing, then it is due to the genius of Hejlsberg.
Apparently there was an extraordinary offer to trigger that transition.
But I think if Hejlsberg had worked further on Delphi, it would be even more amazing.
Even without Hejlsberg Delphi is still in good shape today.
The current TIOBE Index for February 2025 lists Delphi at position 9 - back as a top 10 player after a long time.
By the way, the story about the origin of the name Borland is now told differently on Wikipedia, but the other story as contained in my article (taken from previous Wikipedia article) is a nice myth.
Thank you for the detailed explanation
Gladly.
If I were a blogger, I could be even more elaborate.
But I decided it is better to work on advancing JPEG.
So I practice to communicate just the essence of my insights in a compact form in ad hoc occasions, which has value as well ("the art of compression" as in JPEG)...
MacBook Air will be my entry into Windows on ARM, because no comparable device for Windows on ARM with Qualcomm processor exists.
It is possible with a virtual machine setup, and I will report the result when I've done it...
So paradoxically, for me Windows on ARM only runs on Apple computers.
Apparently Microsoft boosted Windows on ARM primarily for use with Apple silicon, not with Qualcomm.
Apple provided the Boot Camp Assistent to run Windows on Intel silicon Macs, but it doesn't work with Apple silicon.
Now can only use a virtual machine with Windows on ARM, or more specifically Windows on Apple silicon.
In terms of the lineup fanless or not Surface Laptop has always correlated to a Macbook Air (no discrete GPU), SLS/SB has correlated to a Macbook Pro (discrete GPU). It's not an exact 1=1 comparison as they are different platforms from different manufactures.
